Infrequently Noted

Alex Russell on browsers, standards, and the process of progress.

Vendor Prefixes Are A Rousing Success

tl;dr version: Henri Sivonen's arguments against vendor prefixing for CSS properties focus on harm without considering value, which in turn has caused him to come to a non-sensical set of conclusions and recommendations. Progress is a process, and vendor prefixes have been critical in accelerating that process for CSS.

For a while now I've been hearing the meme resurface from CSS standards folks and a few implementers that "vendor prefixes have failed". I'd assumed this was either a (bad) joke or that it was one of those things that web developers would scoff at loudly enough to turn the meme recessive. I was wrong.

Henri Sivonen, Mozilla hacker extrordinare, has made the case directly and at length. Daniel Glazman, co-chair of the CSS WG posted a point-by-point response. If you have the patience, you should read both.

Lost in the debate between "browser people" and "spec people" is the the essential nature of what has happened with prefixes: they worked. From the perspective of a web developer, any first approximation of the history of vendor prefixes are pure win, even if only a fraction of the value that has been delivered behind them is attributable to prefixes un-blocking vendors from taking risks and shipping early.

Daniel's rebuttal to Henri gets a lot of things right, but he gives in on an essential point; by agreeing with Henri that vendor prefixes are "hurting web authors" he wites off the benefits that they've delivered -- namely the ability of vendors to get things out to devs in a provisional way that has good fallback and future-proofing properties and the ability for devs to build with/for the future in an opt-in, degradable way.

Rounded corners, gradients, animations, flex box, etc. are all design and experience enablers that developers have been able to take advantage of while waiting for the standards dust to settle, and thanks to W3C process, it takes a LONG time to to settle. Yes, that has some costs associated with it. Henri is very worried that browsers that aren't keeping up quickly will be "left behind" by webdevs who use only one vendor's prefix. But surely that's a lesser harm than not getting new features and not having the ability to iterate. And it provides incentive for following browsers to try to make a standard happen. What's not to love? More to the point, I just don't believe that this is a serious problem in practice. What front-ender in 2011 doesn't test on at least two browsers? Yes, yes, i'm sure such a retrograde creature exists, but they were going to be making non-portable content regardless of prefixes. Assuming you're testing fallback at all (e.g., by testing on more than one browser), prefixes not appearing on some browser are just the fallback case. CSS FTW! Webdevs who don't test on more than one browser...well, they're the ones hanging the noose around the neck of their own apps. Vendor prefixes no more enable this stupidity than the existence of the User-Agent header. Compatibility is a joint responsibility and the best each side (browser, webdev) can hope of the other is some respect and some competence. Cherry picking egregious examples and claiming "it's hurting the web" seems, at a minimum, premature.

And how did we think we'd get a good standard, anyway? By sitting in a room in a conference center more often and thinking about it harder? Waiting on a handfull of early adopters to try something out in a tech demo and never stress it in practice? That's not a market test (see: XHTML2), it doesn't expose developers to the opportunities and tradeoffs that come with a new feature, and doesn't do anything to address the inevitable need to integrate feedback at some point.

Yes, we could go with Henri's suggestion that the first person to ship wins by default, never iterate on any designs, and avoid any/all first-mover disadvantage situations, but who among the browser vendors is perfect? And what would the predictable consequences be? I can only assume that Henri thinks that we'll end up in a situation where vendors coordinate with the CSS WG early to add new stuff, will design things more-or-less in the open, and will only ship features to stable (no flag) when they're sure of their design. That could happen at the limit, but I doubt it. Instead, the already fraught process of adding new features to the platform will be attempted by even fewer engineers. Who wants the responsibility for having to be perfect lest you screw the web over entirely? Fuck that noise, I'm gonna go work on a new database back-end or tune something to go faster. Browsers are made by smart people who have a choice of things to be working on, and any time you see a new platform feature, it probably came about as the result of an engineer taking a risk. Many times the engineers in a position to take those risks don't have a great sense for what good, idiomatic web platform features might be designed, so they'll need to tweak/iterate based on feedback. And feedback is painfully hard to extract from webdevs unless you've made something available in a tangible way such that they can use it and discover the limitations. Shipping things only to dev is perhaps a good idea for other aspects of the platform where we can't count on CSS's forgiving parsing behavior (the basis for prefixes). Syntax changes for JS and CSS seem like good examples. But for features that are primarily new CSS properties? Oy. Making the stakes even higher, reducing the ability to get feedback and iterate isn't going to lead to a harmonious world of good, fast standards creation. It's going to predictably reduce the amount of new awesome that shows up in the platform.

Prefixes are an enabler in allowing the necessary process of use, iteration, and consensus building to take place. Want fewer messes? There's an easy way to achieve that: try less stuff, add fewer features, and make each one more risky to add. That's Henri's prescription, wether or not he knows it, and the predictable result is a lower rate of progress -- advocating this sort of thing is much worse for the web and for developers than any of the harm that either Henri or Daniel perceive.

Which brings me to Henri's undifferentiated view of harm. His post doesn't acknowledge the good being done by prefixed implementations -- I get the sense he doesn't build apps with this stuff or it'd be obvious how valuable prefixed implementations are for work-a-day web app building -- instead focusing on how various aspects of the process of prefixed competition can be negative. So what? Everything worth having costs something. Saying that things "hurt the web" or "hurt web developers" without talking in terms of relative harm is just throwing up a rhetorical smoke screen to hide behind. If you focus only on the costs but write the benefits out of the story of course the conclusion will be negative. In many cases, the costs that Henri points out are correctly aligned with getting to a better world: having to type things out many times sucks, creating demand among webdevs for there to be a single, standardized winner. Having multiple implementations in your engine sucks, creating demand from vendors to settle the question and get the standards-based solution out to users quickly. Those are good incentives, driven by prices that are low but add up over time in ways that encourage a good outcome: a single standard implemented widely.

And as Sylvain Galineau pointed out, what looks like pure cost to one party might be huge value to another. I think there's a lot of that going on here, and we shouldn't let it go un-contextualized. The things that Henri sees as down-sides are the predictable, relatively minor, costs inherent in a process that allows us to make progress faster and distribute the benefits quickly, all while minimizing the harm. That he's not paying the price for not having features available to build with doesn't mean those opportunity costs aren't real and aren't being borne by webdevs every day. Being able to kill table and image based hacks for rounded corners is providing HUGE value, well ahead of the spec. Same for gradients, transitions, and all the rest. Calling prefixed implementations in the wild a bad thing needs to argue that the harm is greater than all of that value. I don't think Henri could make that case, nor has he tried.

I think the thing that most shocks me about Henri's point of view is that he's arguing against a process when in fact the motivating examples (transforms, gradients) have been sub-optimal in exactly the better-than-before ways we might have hoped for! Gradients, for example, saw a lot of changes and browsers had different ideas about what the syntax should be. Yes, it's harder to get a consistent result when you're trying to triangulate multiple competing syntaxes, but we got to use this stuff, get our hands dirty, and get most of the benefits of the feature while the dust settled. Huzzah! This is exactly> the way a functioning market figures out what's good! Prefixes help developers understand that stuff can and will change, and they clear the way for competition of ideas without burdening the eventual feature's users with legacy bagage tied to a single identifier.

So what about the argument that there might be content that doesn't (quickly?) adopt the non-prefixed version, or that vendors can't remove their prefixed implementations because content depends on it?

To the first, I say: show me a world where 90+% of users have browsers support the standard feature and I'll show you a world in which nobody (functionally) continues to include prefixes. That process is gated in part by the WG's ability to agree to a spec, and here I think there's real opportunity for the CSS WG to go faster. The glacial pace of CSS WG in getting things to a final, ratified spec is in part due to amazingly drawn-out W3C process, and in part a cultural decision on the part of the WG members to go slow. My view is that they should be questioning both of these and working to change them, not blaming prefixes for whatever messes are created in the interim.

As for removing prefixes, this is about vendors just doing it, and quickly. But the definition of "quickly" matters here. My view is that vendors should be given at least as long as it took to get a standard finalized from the introduction of their prefixed version for the removal process to be complete. So if Opera adds an amazing feature behind a -o- prefix in early 2012 and the standard is finalized in 2014, the deprecation and eventual removal should be expected to take 2 years (2016). This has the nice symmetry of incentives that punish the WG for going slow (want to kill prefix impls? get the standard done) while allowing the vendors who took the biggest risks to provide the softest landings for their users. And it doesn't require that we simply go all-in on the first person's design to ship. Yes, there will be mounting pressure to get something done, but that's good too!

The standards process needs to lag implementations, which means that we need spaces for implementations to lead in. CSS vendor prefixes are one of the few shining examples of this working in practice. It's short-term thinking in the extreme to either flag the costs associated with them as either justifying their removal or even suggesting that the costs are too high.

And webdevs, always be skeptical when someone working on an implementation or a spec tells you that something is "hurting the web" when your experience tells you otherwise. The process of progress needs more ways to effectively gauge webdev interest, collect feedback, and test ideas. Not fewer or narrower channels.


I'm sitting here in Derek Featherstone's amazing a11y talk at Fronteers and I feel like I need to follow up the last post with a quick primer on the zen of function for (both of) the spec authors who read this blog.

The reason it's offensive to the JS hacker for WebIDL to disallow new against DOM types -- any of them -- is that it means that it's no longer specifying how you'd describe these types in the primitive we use over here in JS for this sort of thing: functions. This might sound nuts to folks who come from C++ or who spend their time in spec-ese, but there's no difference between a plain-old function, a "constructor", and a "partial" or "mixin" in JS semantics. We use functions for all of them. You can say new function(){ ... } and create an instance of an anonymous "class" in JS. You can take the same function and invoke it as a "regular function" -- (function(){ ... })(); -- and you can use that sort of function as a mixin or partial interface too: new function(){ (function(){ ... }).call(this); ... }. The exact same function object can even act in all of these capacities (although it's rare). People use them as they need to, but they all boil down to functions.

What, then, does it mean for something to disallow new against some type for which you can in some otherwise get an instance in JS? The same thing when you can't .call() it: it's alien. It's not a class as we know it, which means that it's not a function, and if it's not a function...well, it doesn't belong. Fundamentally, it's smuggling static semantics into a language that has perfectly good dynamic semantics for the same thing. This strikes at the very heart of what WebIDL is supposed to be for: describing JS types for things implemented somewhere else. By not allowing new and .call() WebIDL is giving JS semantics the bird, asserting that the fact that these things aren't JS types makes them better in some way...and that is a bug, either in the perspective of the spec authors or of the specs themselves.

Luckily, the fix is easy: all WebIDL types should de-sugar to functions. All of them. All the time. No questions asked. That you will be able to use new and .call() and all the rest isn't a bug, and it's not something to guard against. It's just how JavaScript rolls...and how JavaScript's largest, most important library should roll too.

Real Constructors & WebIDL Last Call

For those who haven't been following the progress of WebIDL -- and really, how could you not? An IDL? For the web? I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter... -- the standard is now in last call, which is W3C for "alllllllllllmost done".

Which it is not.

Before I get to why, let me first say some nice, well-earned things about WebIDL: first, it has helped us out of the ad-hoc IDL sludge that used to be how APIs for JavaScript have been exposed in the past. It has shaved off many sharp edges and is giving spec authors a single dialect in which to write their API descriptions. From a browser perspective, this is a Very Good Thing (TM). Next, the draft in question contains some wonderful changes from the status quo, particularly the addition of a sane prototype to all WebIDL-specified objects.

That all sounds good, so what's missing?

In a word, constructors.

Well, a lot more than that, but I'd settle for constructors. Functionally speaking, it boils down to the fact that WebIDL makes spec authors do extra work to make something like this sane:

new HTMLDivElement();

Why doesn't this work today? Funny story...see, HTML defines HTMLDivElement as a regular WebIDL interface. WebIDL doesn't really have the notion of concrete classes, just interfaces with and without constructors. Since the HTML spec is just doing what most specs will do -- adding the smallest IDL you can get away with -- the JS usability of this API is left in limbo; neither clearly HTML5's responsibility nor WebIDL's.

So what should a contentious version of HTML5 do? One answer is to specify a constructor, turning the IDL from this:

interface HTMLDivElement : HTMLElement {};

to this:

interface HTMLDivElement : HTMLElement {};

Repeat ad-infinitum for each and every interface that should be constructable in every single spec that browser vendors ever implement. Don't miss any! And please make sure that all your spec editors are on-board with good JS APIs as a goal! As it stands today, WebIDL doesn't even force most spec authors to consider the question "do I need a constructor here?" -- spoiler: yes -- let alone the obvious follow-ups like "what arguments should one take?".

The obvious better answer here is to flip the default on interfaces, causing them to generate constructors by default unless turned off with [NoConstructor] attributes or specified as partial interfaces (i.e., mixins or traits).

Cameron McCormack who is heading up the WebIDL effort tweeted in response to my exasperation that:

I think a "W3C Web API design guidelines" document would be a perfect place for such a recommendation.

For serious? Such a document might be useful (and I'm working on something that might pass as a first draft), but what's the argument against flipping the default here? This isn't a dissent on the facts of the situation: most WebIDL "interfaces" that are exposed to JS are things that could be easily new'd up to useful ends. Most specs flub this in spectacular style. Most spec authors seem entirely ignorant of the problem and the design language of WebIDL continues to lead down a primrose copy-and-paste path that has little overlap with sanity. So why punt the decision? And why did it take and act of coordination with TC39 to get the prototype thing fixed?

And Why Are We Having This Discussion Anyway?

WebIDL, for all of its virtues, is deeply confused.

If you're reading any of the stuff in the HTML5 spec that's describing its API this way, it's hard to see how it would have any sane relationship to JavaScript. Sure, you could argue that there might be other languages that matter, other languages for which you'd need to be able to generate some API, but none of them rise to anything like the importance of JavaScript. It is the programming language of the web, so if WebIDL has any animating force at all, it's JS. Then there's the "accident of history" aspect. Early DOM was specified as a form of IDL in part because there was some expectation that other languages would need to consume it and IDL was how C++ hackers (who still make up the entire set of people working on browser engines) are/were comfortable in describing their FFIs thanks to the legacy of COM/CORBA. Hilarious examples of multi-language-ism still persist in the WebIDL spec for no apparent reason whatsoever, warping the entire design around the altar of an ideal that is either quixotic or vestigial depending on which argument you give more weight.

Since the debate was re-kindled thanks to a debate at a TC39 meeting in July, I've been on the receiving end of more than one webdev's rant about DOM's JS incoherence, generally taking the form:

Why the *#!*?^@$ isn't DOM just #@!*@ing specified in JavaScript?

To be honest, I have no answer aside from pointing to the IDL history, the fact that browser hackers don't tend to write JS so don't feel the pain, and noting that WebIDL is better in some important ways. Certainly these interfaces could be specified in a subset of JS with annotations for where native behavior is required. But their larger lament has merit too: seamlessness with JS is the bar WebIDL should be judged by. I.e. does it help spec authors do the right thing by JS devs? Or does it lead them down paths that make their generated APIs stick out like sore thumbs, full of anti-social/alien behavior such that you can't think of them as "regular" JS?

Yes, constructors are only one minor step toward reaching this aspiration, but the fact that WebIDL has gotten to last-call without a reasonable solution to them speak volumes. If WebIDL isn't animated by the need of JS developers, it would be good if that could be loudly called out somewhere so that the community can have the spirited debate that this point demands. If it is, can we please get on discussing how best to ensure that most "interfaces" generate constructors and stop punting?

Either way, WebIDL isn't done yet.

Update: It occurred to me, as part of the discussion in the comments, that the provision against new with a class or type of any type is completely non-sensical in JS, as is the lack of call() and apply() methods on them. Idiomatic subclassing requires that the mixin-style be available, which uses This is what you'd do with things that are "virtual" or "partial" interfaces if you're describing them in actual JS. And there's no real problem with folks new-ing them up. Doesn't happen, doesn't matter. Strong restrictions against it are, to quote Andrew DuPont, anti-social. Long story short: there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to disable construction on any WebIDL interface. It's deeply non-sensical from the JavaScript perspective.

Standards Are Insurance

I keep getting distracted from writing this long thing by responding to the discussion created by the last short-ish thing, but I wanted to explicitly call out one aspect, namely that standards are a form of insurance.

More correctly -- and apologies if this sounds like a Planet Money episode -- vendors sell derivatives contracts (insurance) against the proprietary nature of technologies. I.e., as a hedge against winner-take-all dynamics of network effects and the potential for monopoly rent extraction. Adopters of that technology often refuse to buy it at all without the availability of a derivative to cover their risk of lock-in.

The nice bit about these contracts is that the results (price) are free to the public -- ITU and other old-skool orgs are exceptions -- meaning anyone who wants to implement can assess what it'll cost, and if they can provide a solution at a lower to-end-user price, they can compete under the same terms. The public nature of the derivative contract can have the effect of lowering the price of the good itself in markets that clear and have many participants.

Standards organizations are correctly understood as middle-men or market-makers for these contracts.

Update: It may seem strange to some that derivatives contracts (insurance) can drive prices down, but it happens in many industries. E.g., satellite insurance has done wonders for the commercial launch vehicle industry. And who would fund the construction of new cargo ships if you couldn't convince enough people to ship their precious goods? Insurance matters.

What A Breakup Would Look Like

Karl Dubost asked what a plan would look like for a W3C split along the lines I proposed in my last post. It's a fair question, so let me very quickly sketch out straw-men while noting that I would support many alternative plans as well. The shape of the details might matter, but not as much as movement in the right direction, and I have faith that the W3C members and staff would do a good job of executing on any such plan. Here are some general forms it could take, both of which seem workable to me:

Spin-Off With Cross-licensing

Taking many of the W3C's activities to a different organization might be traumatic for some members due to IPR concerns. If the members agree that this is the most important consideration, a pure split could be effected, leaving smaller, parallel organizations with identical legal arrangements and identical IPR policies in place. Member organizations would, in a transition period, decide to move their membership to the spin-off, stay with the W3C, or join both (perhaps at a discount?). A contract between the new organizations would allow perpetual cross-licensing of applicable patent rights.

The risk to this plan is that it may not be clear that one new organization would be appropriate -- remember, we're talking about many strange bedfellows under the current W3C umbrella -- so perhaps this may only work for whatever center of gravity exists in the spun-off concerns. Smaller efforts (Java-centric APIs, etc.) may want to find other homes.


One or more of the sub-efforts on the block may wish to find a new home in an existing standards organization. For these efforts there is likely to be larger mismatch between processes, IPR policies, etc. than a spin-off would entail, but the benefits to both receivers and members are clear: a viable home for the long term is hard to build, but coming home to "your people" isn't nearly as difficult. XML standards, for instance, have a long history at OASIS and it's unlikely that many members who care primarily about XML at the W3C aren't also active there. Transfer of IPR in this case is likely to be more fraught, so contracts which stipulate license from the W3C to these new organizations would also need to include clauses which cause the receiving orgs to exercise similar processes to the ones currently in place for the standards which they receive ownership of. The contract would also need to stipulate that RF never be endangered for new versions of divested specs. I haven't thought hard about transfer of membership under this scenario, but pro-rated and discounted membership terms at all merging organizations -- but only for divested activities -- might work.

Whatever path a breakup takes, the W3C should listen to each of the non-web communities it's spinning off and work to ensure that their needs are met in the process. There are lots of details I don't have time to think through right now, but none of the ones I can identify seem like deal-breakers. The biggest missing piece is the political will to make something happen in the first place.

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