Comments on: +1.5 Years: Where Are We Now? http://infrequently.org/2007/09/15-years-where-are-we-now/ Thu, 10 May 2012 17:22:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Continuing Intermittent Incoherency » How IE Mangles The Design Of JavaScript Libraries http://infrequently.org/2007/09/15-years-where-are-we-now/comment-page-1/#comment-222916 Continuing Intermittent Incoherency » How IE Mangles The Design Of JavaScript Libraries Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:53:28 +0000 http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?p=620#comment-222916 [...] A lot of hyperbole gets thrown around about how painful IE 6 and 7 make the world of JS development, and so I thought I’d do a bit of cataloging to help those using Dojo understand why it’s built the way it is and indeed, why all JS widget libraries suffer similar design warts. I know the good folks up in Redmond are working hard at delivering something better, but the fact of the matter remains that until they outline when we’re going to get it (and the version after) and how it’s going to be distributed, IE 8 only serves to make the current situation look as shabby as it really is. Here are but 5 examples of how IE makes your toolkit of choice less elegant than it probably should be. [...] [...] A lot of hyperbole gets thrown around about how painful IE 6 and 7 make the world of JS development, and so I thought I’d do a bit of cataloging to help those using Dojo understand why it’s built the way it is and indeed, why all JS widget libraries suffer similar design warts. I know the good folks up in Redmond are working hard at delivering something better, but the fact of the matter remains that until they outline when we’re going to get it (and the version after) and how it’s going to be distributed, IE 8 only serves to make the current situation look as shabby as it really is. Here are but 5 examples of how IE makes your toolkit of choice less elegant than it probably should be. [...]

]]> By: Continuing Intermittent Incoherency » The Strangely Charged ES4 “Debate” http://infrequently.org/2007/09/15-years-where-are-we-now/comment-page-1/#comment-194636 Continuing Intermittent Incoherency » The Strangely Charged ES4 “Debate” Fri, 02 Nov 2007 08:36:55 +0000 http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?p=620#comment-194636 [...] Closed-platform vendors have always been selling that advantage, in part because it may be their only sustainable advantage over mass ubiquity and real competition. What advocates of the “go slow” position rightly are pointing out is that when faced with what to do next, the pace of change suggests that the deployed browser population is set in stone. It has always looked this way, though. From the days when Netscape 3.2 kept us from using DHTML in any real form to the years when NN4 just couldn’t die fast enough all the way through the new deadpool taking bets around the demise of IE 6, progress on the web has always been gated by deployed systems. Yet somehow we’ve got most of HTML 4, CSS 2, and ES3 in a semi-portable form. Clearly the web is robust enough to handle moderate doses of divergent implementations. Progress neither asks for permission nor arrives with a press release. It’s made one browser upgrade or replacement at a time. [...] [...] Closed-platform vendors have always been selling that advantage, in part because it may be their only sustainable advantage over mass ubiquity and real competition. What advocates of the “go slow” position rightly are pointing out is that when faced with what to do next, the pace of change suggests that the deployed browser population is set in stone. It has always looked this way, though. From the days when Netscape 3.2 kept us from using DHTML in any real form to the years when NN4 just couldn’t die fast enough all the way through the new deadpool taking bets around the demise of IE 6, progress on the web has always been gated by deployed systems. Yet somehow we’ve got most of HTML 4, CSS 2, and ES3 in a semi-portable form. Clearly the web is robust enough to handle moderate doses of divergent implementations. Progress neither asks for permission nor arrives with a press release. It’s made one browser upgrade or replacement at a time. [...]

]]> By: SitePen Blog » Blog Archive » Clue++: The IE Team Stops Treating Their Customers Like Criminals http://infrequently.org/2007/09/15-years-where-are-we-now/comment-page-1/#comment-185986 SitePen Blog » Blog Archive » Clue++: The IE Team Stops Treating Their Customers Like Criminals Sat, 06 Oct 2007 06:08:31 +0000 http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?p=620#comment-185986 [...] When it became clear that IE 7 was going to be tied to WGA in an early beta, it left a lot of angry developers scratching their heads. Perhaps smart moves like this are enough to counter the lack of public communication about the future of IE and the stunning paucity of debugging tools for Redmond’s browser (among other things), but anything that cycles IE 6 out of circulation faster is good for the web. Kudos to the IE team for doing the right thing by their users. [...] [...] When it became clear that IE 7 was going to be tied to WGA in an early beta, it left a lot of angry developers scratching their heads. Perhaps smart moves like this are enough to counter the lack of public communication about the future of IE and the stunning paucity of debugging tools for Redmond’s browser (among other things), but anything that cycles IE 6 out of circulation faster is good for the web. Kudos to the IE team for doing the right thing by their users. [...]

]]> By: Continuing Intermittent Incoherency » The Browser.Next List http://infrequently.org/2007/09/15-years-where-are-we-now/comment-page-1/#comment-175061 Continuing Intermittent Incoherency » The Browser.Next List Thu, 13 Sep 2007 01:03:16 +0000 http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?p=620#comment-175061 [...] Thanks to the Ajaxian’s for linking my last post on the topic of what we need from IE. As I’ve been responding to the comments, it occured to me that it’s not quite fair to poke IE in the eye when there are issues (like WYSIWYG) where we need the help of all the browser vendors to get something useful done. That in mind, here’s my generic Browser.Next list of 10 issues that would give Ajax libraries a break and let app authors worry less. [...] [...] Thanks to the Ajaxian’s for linking my last post on the topic of what we need from IE. As I’ve been responding to the comments, it occured to me that it’s not quite fair to poke IE in the eye when there are issues (like WYSIWYG) where we need the help of all the browser vendors to get something useful done. That in mind, here’s my generic Browser.Next list of 10 issues that would give Ajax libraries a break and let app authors worry less. [...]

]]> By: artikboy.com ⁄ Blog http://infrequently.org/2007/09/15-years-where-are-we-now/comment-page-1/#comment-172634 artikboy.com ⁄ Blog Sat, 08 Sep 2007 22:11:57 +0000 http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?p=620#comment-172634 [...] I came across with this post over at Ajaxian while browsing through my RSS common feeds. It’s a sort of review done on a text posted by Alex Russel over 1.5 years, mentioning several aspects on the conduct of browser developer teams, specially on the IE team responsible for the 7th version of the one that is probably the most famous browser worldwide. [...] [...] I came across with this post over at Ajaxian while browsing through my RSS common feeds. It’s a sort of review done on a text posted by Alex Russel over 1.5 years, mentioning several aspects on the conduct of browser developer teams, specially on the IE team responsible for the 7th version of the one that is probably the most famous browser worldwide. [...]

]]> By: Bertrand Le Roy http://infrequently.org/2007/09/15-years-where-are-we-now/comment-page-1/#comment-171997 Bertrand Le Roy Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:51:31 +0000 http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?p=620#comment-171997 Thanks for fixing the editor (still can't tab to it but that's a minor inconvenience) and for the detailed answer. In my (very ancient, like 1999) experience writing a wysiwyg editor with the ActiveX, the undo stack was very much broken too, and we had many other problems with it. At the time we welcomed contentEditable gladly as it was a lot more manageable for us. But I agree that the undo stack and caret management are the really tricky parts that should be fixed. Thanks for fixing the editor (still can’t tab to it but that’s a minor inconvenience) and for the detailed answer. In my (very ancient, like 1999) experience writing a wysiwyg editor with the ActiveX, the undo stack was very much broken too, and we had many other problems with it. At the time we welcomed contentEditable gladly as it was a lot more manageable for us. But I agree that the undo stack and caret management are the really tricky parts that should be fixed.

]]> By: Andreas http://infrequently.org/2007/09/15-years-where-are-we-now/comment-page-1/#comment-171842 Andreas Fri, 07 Sep 2007 10:07:25 +0000 http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?p=620#comment-171842  I never was a big fan of firefox and always have been a microsoft user, but sometimes Microsoft does pisses you off! What's with the multiple tabs carshes Microsoft?<a href="http://www.nueronic.com/internet-explorer-7-sucks/" rel="nofollow">http://www.nueronic.com/internet-explorer-7-sucks/</a>  I never was a big fan of firefox and always have been a microsoft user, but sometimes Microsoft does pisses you off! What’s with the multiple tabs carshes Microsoft?http://www.nueronic.com/internet-explorer-7-sucks/

]]> By: occident.us » Blog Archive » links for 2007-09-07 http://infrequently.org/2007/09/15-years-where-are-we-now/comment-page-1/#comment-171644 occident.us » Blog Archive » links for 2007-09-07 Fri, 07 Sep 2007 07:28:31 +0000 http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?p=620#comment-171644 [...] Continuing Intermittent Incoherency » +1.5 Years: Where Are We Now? Wise words from Alex Russell on the specter that haunts my nightmares. (tags: ie7 ajax ria microsoft) [...] [...] Continuing Intermittent Incoherency » +1.5 Years: Where Are We Now? Wise words from Alex Russell on the specter that haunts my nightmares. (tags: ie7 ajax ria microsoft) [...]

]]> By: alex http://infrequently.org/2007/09/15-years-where-are-we-now/comment-page-1/#comment-171228 alex Thu, 06 Sep 2007 21:59:04 +0000 http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?p=620#comment-171228  Bertrand:The editor is now upgraded to 0.9 and works on IE 7 (XP SP2) just fine. Let me know if you're still having issues with it.Regards  Bertrand:The editor is now upgraded to 0.9 and works on IE 7 (XP SP2) just fine. Let me know if you’re still having issues with it.Regards

]]> By: alex http://infrequently.org/2007/09/15-years-where-are-we-now/comment-page-1/#comment-171200 alex Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:58:51 +0000 http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?p=620#comment-171200 Hey Bertrand, I haven't yet upgraded the editor on this page for 0.9. I'll try to get that done today. As for the substantive question regarding contentEditable, it's behavior WRT the undo stack is completely bogus. I've blogged about a potential solution <a href="http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?p=621" rel="nofollow">here</a>, but the current situation is that w/ the ActiveX control we could have atomic, undoable updates which were constrained to the editing area itself and with contentEditable today that's just not possible. The result is that it's not really feasible to easily add new features to WYSIWYG editing or even make it reasonably semantic without biting off the problem of implementing your own undo stack (invariably, badly). This situation is not tennable. Regards Hey Bertrand,

I haven’t yet upgraded the editor on this page for 0.9. I’ll try to get that done today.

As for the substantive question regarding contentEditable, it’s behavior WRT the undo stack is completely bogus. I’ve blogged about a potential solution here, but the current situation is that w/ the ActiveX control we could have atomic, undoable updates which were constrained to the editing area itself and with contentEditable today that’s just not possible. The result is that it’s not really feasible to easily add new features to WYSIWYG editing or even make it reasonably semantic without biting off the problem of implementing your own undo stack (invariably, badly).

This situation is not tennable.

Regards

]]> By: Andy http://infrequently.org/2007/09/15-years-where-are-we-now/comment-page-1/#comment-171182 Andy Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:47:50 +0000 http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?p=620#comment-171182 Both webkit and gecko are embeddable and reasonably mature, can't microsoft just put their own interface on top of one of these? Hell, even opera would be open to providing a closed solution if microsoft doesn't want to touch open source stuff.  They did it before with earlier IE version that embedded the spyglass/NSCA code, so they have their own precedent. Your relationship analogy is a good one, but there's another, perhaps stronger, relationship at play.  Microsoft's claims of love and pride for a product they obviously don't really care about.  Actions speak louder than words, and IE7's release, and the lead up to it, was like a dead-beat dad who only shows up, unannounced, on your birthday. Both webkit and gecko are embeddable and reasonably mature, can’t microsoft just put their own interface on top of one of these? Hell, even opera would be open to providing a closed solution if microsoft doesn’t want to touch open source stuff.  They did it before with earlier IE version that embedded the spyglass/NSCA code, so they have their own precedent.

Your relationship analogy is a good one, but there’s another, perhaps stronger, relationship at play.  Microsoft’s claims of love and pride for a product they obviously don’t really care about.  Actions speak louder than words, and IE7′s release, and the lead up to it, was like a dead-beat dad who only shows up, unannounced, on your birthday.

]]> By: Bertrand Le Roy http://infrequently.org/2007/09/15-years-where-are-we-now/comment-page-1/#comment-171180 Bertrand Le Roy Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:09:40 +0000 http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?p=620#comment-171180 Hey Alex, I was wondering about one thing you say in the post: why do you feel that WYSIWYG editing through ActiveX controls was better than contentEditable? By the way, I had to launch Firefox to comment here as the rich text control does not seem to be focusable on IE7/Vista. Even in Firefox, it  seems to be out of the tab order (hitting tab from the previous field doesn't focus on it). Thanks! Hey Alex, I was wondering about one thing you say in the post: why do you feel that WYSIWYG editing through ActiveX controls was better than contentEditable?
By the way, I had to launch Firefox to comment here as the rich text control does not seem to be focusable on IE7/Vista. Even in Firefox, it  seems to be out of the tab order (hitting tab from the previous field doesn’t focus on it).
Thanks!

]]> By: Eddie Welker http://infrequently.org/2007/09/15-years-where-are-we-now/comment-page-1/#comment-171171 Eddie Welker Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:39:17 +0000 http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?p=620#comment-171171 I was excited about IE7 when it came out. I had read a list of the problems fixed by the release, and this was directly from the source... one of the guys working on it.  I was encouraged that there were names associated with IE, and thought that this release would be a good step forward. I now believe it was less a step than simply a tease.  Things were corrected, but in the larger context (everyone's personal IE7 bug-list, including yours), these were minor changes.  The release was long enough ago that any excitement or hope for possibility has worn off for me.  All excitement has now faded. I wouldn't be surprised by a future release, with a few more small-potatos bug fixes, just to maintain a glimmer of hope for most people.  Heck, maybe we won't even get that.  I'd love for them to prove me wrong.  Regardless, I don't think IE will ever provide anything other than reactionary releases, furthering your point that Microsoft will only do the minimum they can get away with. I was excited about IE7 when it came out. I had read a list of the problems fixed by the release, and this was directly from the source… one of the guys working on it.  I was encouraged that there were names associated with IE, and thought that this release would be a good step forward.

I now believe it was less a step than simply a tease.  Things were corrected, but in the larger context (everyone’s personal IE7 bug-list, including yours), these were minor changes.  The release was long enough ago that any excitement or hope for possibility has worn off for me. 

All excitement has now faded. I wouldn’t be surprised by a future release, with a few more small-potatos bug fixes, just to maintain a glimmer of hope for most people.  Heck, maybe we won’t even get that.  I’d love for them to prove me wrong.  Regardless, I don’t think IE will ever provide anything other than reactionary releases, furthering your point that Microsoft will only do the minimum they can get away with.

]]> By: +1.5 Years: Where Are We Now? - Noticias externas http://infrequently.org/2007/09/15-years-where-are-we-now/comment-page-1/#comment-171170 +1.5 Years: Where Are We Now? - Noticias externas Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:39:02 +0000 http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?p=620#comment-171170 [...] +1.5 Years: Where Are We Now? If the IE team is holed up working on something stonkingly good, they certainly aren’t doing themselves any favors by not telling us about it. The result of their radio silence isn’t mystery, it’s distrust. Deep, divisive, troubling distrust of the kind you can only get when folks who break up stop talking altogether. The problem is that IE still has half of my DVDs and my friends keep telling me it’s just using me. Not a great way to rebuild a relationship.http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?p=620so what is the story with IE8? why the silence? is there going to be an IE8?? are there any new videos here on c9 from IE team coming up? [...] [...] +1.5 Years: Where Are We Now? If the IE team is holed up working on something stonkingly good, they certainly aren’t doing themselves any favors by not telling us about it. The result of their radio silence isn’t mystery, it’s distrust. Deep, divisive, troubling distrust of the kind you can only get when folks who break up stop talking altogether. The problem is that IE still has half of my DVDs and my friends keep telling me it’s just using me. Not a great way to rebuild a relationship.http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?p=620so what is the story with IE8? why the silence? is there going to be an IE8?? are there any new videos here on c9 from IE team coming up? [...]

]]> By: Ajaxian » Web Developers, Where Are We Now? http://infrequently.org/2007/09/15-years-where-are-we-now/comment-page-1/#comment-171158 Ajaxian » Web Developers, Where Are We Now? Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:20:16 +0000 http://alex.dojotoolkit.org/?p=620#comment-171158 [...] Alex Russell isn’t known for holding back his opinions. He continues his tradition of calling issues to our attention in his piece on Where are we now?. [...] [...] Alex Russell isn’t known for holding back his opinions. He continues his tradition of calling issues to our attention in his piece on Where are we now?. [...]

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